How to Work with Influencers with Sarah Sociables
In this episode, I invited Sarah "Sociables" Hovind to come on to talk about influencer marketing. We have a few laughs and discuss how to approach influencers to advocate for your brand.
Show Notes:
Sarah Sociables Website
This podcast is brought to you by and hosted by Derek Hovinga at The Inbound Lab.
Transcript
Intro:
it's Derek here from the inbound lab, and you're listening to the client-side podcast. Well, the BI weekly podcast has turned into a weekly podcast for the time being just because I've got a lot of episodes recorded. And I'm just really excited to present these interviews to you because I think the guests are great. And there are a lot of takeaways for all these interviews. So I just want to keep them from you. You know, on today's episode, I don't have someone who's necessarily a client or somebody who hires an agency or hires a consultant. Instead, I've got someone that agencies or businesses would hire to help promote their brand. Her name is Sarah Hoeven, aka Sarah socials. And Sarah is a local influencer in Calgary and she's here to talk about how agencies or businesses can better approach influencers and how you can work together to create a successful awareness campaign. So if you're a business owner, or maybe you're a social media manager at an agency, you're probably gonna want to listen to this episode. I hope you enjoy.
Sarah: Okay, so hopefully this goes well because I have a cat on my lap right now. Hello. And also Dave is in the office next to me and he's going to be on his like work call. So hopefully it'll go like, audio that sneaks in from his work stuff.
Derek: That's okay, cuz not like running Joe Rogan's podcast here. I'm running the Derek Hovinga podcast. So what are you drinking by the way?
Sarah: So this flatlander cider, this is they have like multiple flavors. This one is just their regular apple crisp. So classic kind of cider. It's pretty good. It's like a little bit on the dry side, but still has some sweetness, kind of like a happy medium.
Derek: Gotcha. Yeah, I'm trying to avoid drinking beer because I'm trying to lose a lot of weight. Because I gained a lot over COVID
Sarah: The Covid 15?
Derek: More like the Covid 300, man. But I'm drinking a tequila soda. Patron because, you know, baller like that. Actually, it was a gift. A little bit of lime in there. Yeah, tequila soda and lime juice. It's like, the healthiest. I guess you can't really say healthiest drink. But I feel you with that. It's like the the least amount of sugar drink that I can come up with. So have you been a guest on a podcast?
Sarah: Yeah, I've been on three or four podcasts.
Derek: Yeah, okay. Well, yeah. Hopefully, your experience with me will be good.
Sarah: I can give you some feedback.
Derek: Oh, that scares me now. Why don't we start off by talking a bit about you? Because I know who you are. Cuz we've been friends for a while. But you know, who are you Sarah?
Sarah: See, these questions are hard to answer because they're so broad. It's like, Where do I begin with that? I was born in 1983. In a small town in rural Alberta.
Derek: Right, Rocky Mountain House. . .
Sarah: I wasn't born and Rocky is actually born in his bail. Oh, I don't know that. It's a fun fact. Actually, it's a pretty boring fact. Okay, where should I start with my journey? So usually I tell people, I moved to Calgary about 10 years ago, after I was done school. Got a job. I did some research stuff. You know, pretty boring office type material. And what I was doing kind of on the side, Well, not really on the side, I want to say more like in my spare time. I liked going to restaurants with my friends and attending events and drinking. You know, I guess like stuff fairly typical people do. And I kind of wanted to expand upon that more officially, I guess, on Instagram. And I kind of got the idea to just run with that. And I never really intended to be like an influencer per se. I feel like that kind of just happened to me as like Google big enough following. But I did always plan on sharing fun events and restaurant and brewery news with people that was always kind of my goal. And that's what I've been doing the last I guess it's been two and a half years because I started January 2019 was when Sarah socials was kind of formed in my mind.
Derek: Right? And when did you getting paid to do this for a start? Like how were you like, Hey, I can get paid to do this?
Sarah: Well, it kind of like developed because like I started in January 2019. And as I was like growing my following, I would get like requests from people to do stuff. And at first it would be kind of more like exchanges like you do this, and I'll do this for you. And then I was kind of like surprised that people were interested in doing that and I got more and more of those types of requests. And then I started getting offers for money. To do stuff. So I think the first kind of big paycheck I got was for something that paid 500 bucks. And I was in the summertime. So, yeah, it took about six months before I started, like making any money, because you have a full time job as well, right?
Derek: Yes, yes, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. You know, there's like your mommy bloggers and one, two are like stay at home moms, and they make 1000s of dollars per posts and stuff like that.
Sarah: Good for them for doing that. You can definitely earn a living off of it. I think like one thing is, you need to have a pretty big following, like my following is 14,000 people, which isn't big, really, in the grand scheme of things. Seems huge to me. Not really, because if you think there's like, I think they have the categories. It's like, you're a micro-influencer, you're I know, the middle level is your mezzo influencer something, you're like, between 10 grand and like 100, grand or something. And then there's like, your 100 grand plus influencers. And then there's like your mega influencers, which where you have like over a million or something, right? There are kind of like categories. So if you're got 100,000 plus followers, then you can obviously charge a lot more for posts if you have 10,000, or 5000. But even if you have 2000 people follow you, you can still charge for a post at a time, it just is a lot harder for you to pay your bills off of those posts consistently, right? Like it's going to be the income is not going to be steady when you have a smaller Yes,.
Derek: What's the negotiating tactic when it comes to figuring out how much to get paid for a post? Like how do businesses kind of say, Okay, here's how much money I have for a post, or here's what I want to give you for a post?
Sarah: Well, so it depends who is approaching the influencer. And I kind of say, there's two, maybe three categories. But like, let's say if it's an agency, they would normally come to me with like a budget number. And they would say, like, we've allotted $500 for this post, do you want it or not, right? And every influencer gets a lot of $500 later across the board. So it's just up to you to be like, would I do what they're asking for $500? Or would I not do it right? Sometimes you can like, say, negotiate a little bit back and forth. But usually, they're like, oh, here's our campaign briefly, this is what we want. And this is the offer. So there's not a lot of back and forth with that. But other times in agency will have a budget of X amount 1000s of dollars, and they're like, okay, for $10,000 how many influencers can get in on this campaign? So they'll go around and be like, how can we get the maximum amount of people in on this to maximize our advertising dollars? And that case, there is more like diversity in terms of what they're offering people because someone might be getting paid $2,000 for a post that someone else is doing for like $50, which doesn't make any sense. I mean, it might make some sense if there's a huge difference in follower Mac. But it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's like the same amount of work went into the post.
Derek: Right? We talked about followers, what are the main things that businesses or agencies are looking for when they're looking for an influencer to kind of advocate for their, their product or their service?
Sarah: That should be a good match for whatever it is that they're selling whatever the product or service is, right? So if they're trying to sell a fashion-related project, that product, they should have, like a fashion-related influencer, or maybe someone in that realm, like makeup or lifestyle or something, right. But if you're trying to sell, you know, diapers, like don't go to the fashion blogger, or if you're trying to sell, you know, just like stuff that doesn't match at all. And I find people, that sounds really obvious, but that is like a huge mistake that most people make, or I get approached for all sorts of things that I have never posted about even remotely and never plan on posting about. And it's like, Yeah, I don't think people understand the concept of like, who my basic demographic audience is, and like why it's important that your product should kind of match that right.
Derek: it's important for any business or whatever, to figure out what your goals are to find your audience monitor the influencers, to make sure that they align with what that audience is, yeah…
Sarah: Even just like a basic scan at that person's profile, and like, what kind of posts they make, I think a lot of people just look at follower count. And they're thinking, Oh, well, you have 50,000 followers, and you're a mom, blogger, and you have 5000 followers, if you know, sell alcohol Well, I want to sell alcohol, but I'm still going to use the mom blog because she's got 50,000 it's like, well, doesn't it make sense like maybe you should go with a person who always sells alcohol and hasn't already expected more alcohol, right? versus, like the mom blogger, has never made a post about alcohol in their life. But like, yeah, that's not common sense. It really is. Yeah, I mean mommies need booze too. That was just an example. But you know what I'm saying?
Derek: So you're more of like an events type of person, what are the types of products and services you're willing to promote on on your social channels.
Sarah: So I love doing events, like local events, especially Unfortunately, there's been a huge call to that, yeah, just a little, March 2020. That's kind of evaporated for me. But that's like, my favorite thing to promote, because it's just something that I'm excited about and passionate about and comes naturally. And I really want to encourage and influence people to go to local events, because I feel like it is good for them to like, get out of their house and enjoy themselves and have fun. And that's kind of my own personal mission statement. That's easy for me to sell. Because that's, that's my whole, like, inner belief. So I try to pro local events is huge. Also restaurants just because I get excited about when new restaurants open. I'd love supporting local, and I think other people are excited about, like restaurant industry trends, these are just things that I'm excited to talk about what's the newest trend and pizza or like, whatever it is, like I'm always down to discuss that with people. So any restaurant who would hire me to help them with that, like I'm totally pumped to do. I also like sharing brewery news. And since the pandemic, I've pivoted to talking more about just alcohol in general, which is funny because I'm my intent when I started by Cal was never to like, be promoting alcohol. But here we are, I've kind of pivoted to like kind of selling a lot of alcohol products or promoting them, I guess I should say, which I'm okay with.
Derek: When you get some customers or when you get like businesses or agencies asking you to help them out and promote their product or service, what are they trying to achieve by going to just trying to increase their reach? Or are they just trying to find somebody who will can advocate for their brand? Or what's the deal?
Sarah: Some people know what they're looking for? very specifically, others have no idea, right? So it makes it a really difficult conversation for those people. Like so I guess it's kind of like a two part question. So I guess I'll start with the people who do know what they want. Some people say they want just awareness. If you're asking for awareness, it's because they have like a particular goal, or like, we want people to know that restaurants open. So it's kind of like a key message that they want to get out there. Sometimes it's about like actual sales that they want to get. So that's like harder to do. They're expecting me to sell stuff for them. Because I mean, I can't control people are going to buy their product or service or not. But sometimes they tell me, yes, our goal is sales. And I kind of give them advice on what I would do to get there. And sometimes they want followers. So they might be like, what can you do to increase our followers to a certain count, or they have a particular product launch, lots of times they will contact me for that. They're like this is new coming out this date, or something attached to a particular date, like a holiday, they'll be like, it's Mother's Day coming out? Can you help us promote for this particular campaign? So some people do have specific objectives. Other people have no idea what they want. So they'll approach me and just say, like, how can you help me? What are the ways? Let's do a collab together? And I'm like, Well, what do you what do you want, though? And they're like, we don't know. What do you usually do? And I'm like, I don't really know what that means. And then I'll be like, Well, do you have like a budget you could give me so I could like ballpark what I could do for you and arrange and they're like, we don't know our budget? It depends, right? And I'm like, okay, and like we just felt like ridiculous back and forth. Circular conversation where they won't, they won't give me any information. And I think it's because there is, at least with small businesses, a little bit of suspicion around like influencers, like taking advantage of people, like if they throw out a number, I'm gonna be like, Oh, yeah, let's kill that, you know, legit money or something. But I'm really just trying to ballpark what they want at all. Like, I'm not trying to like, take their money from them. I honestly want to help people. So that makes those conversations difficult. So there's so many questions around it people. It's kind of like shrouded in mystery, and they don't know how to approach influencers. They don't know ballpark pricing, so you get all sorts of weird requests and off To work for free.
Derek: What’s the ideal way to approach an influencer? Do they just go to their social channels and send you a DM and say, “Hey!”
Sarah: Ideally, not a DM, and the reason for that is because a DM essentially like a text conversation. So it's really just short-form back and forth. And it's not good communication, like an email is way better in my mind, because then at least get a paragraph from somewhere like a couple of sentences. Like, I do need a little bit of background from someone to be able to make a good recommendation in terms of how I can help them. Right. So I definitely prefer emails to DMs. I'll still answer my DMS. But I usually direct people to email right away.
Derek: Yeah, that's a good idea. What do you prefer, you talk about clients who know what they want or know what their goal is, but they might not know how to utilize you to get to their goal. And you talked about customers who have no idea what to do they just see your follower account. And they're like, yeah, talk about us. Do you prefer that they kind of give you direction?
Sarah: Yeah, like, if they have any idea like, Yes, I want to hear it for sure, the more the better. But if they don't know, like, I'm not gonna hold it against you, if like, you're not sure what you want, but you do have to give me something to work off of, like, at least let me know, like, what is your business problem? Or what is your business goal? Or like, what are you working on right now? Or at least? Like, why did you contact me? any big like, just contacting me and saying, I want to collab? Like, I need some background? And like, why did you pick me? Like, what do you have going on in your world right now? What do you sell even? Because sometimes I don't know what it is. They want me to remote? Like, is it a product? Or do they have an event coming up related to their product? Or they just want a single time shout out? Or do they want to gift me something like, like, I don't even have a ballpark so. So it's not that I'm not like, like judging people for not knowing what they want. It's just that they have to be able to not be scared to have a conversation about what they want. Because I'm not going to use that information against you. I just need it to be able to help.
Derek: Yeah, or there are clients who are just like, I need you to say exactly this. Or would you prefer to be the one with all of the creative direction?
Sarah: Yeah, the creative control for campaign. Yeah. So that usually comes up on like, bigger budget stuff, where it is like a name, brand, whatever. So they have a whole bunch of rules that are in the contract about what needs to be tagged and the hashtags that are used and exactly how the product is presented. And they'll give you like, like a key notes for what you're supposed to say, You're supposed to, like, make it sound natural, but you're like using all their keywords. And you're like, I would never like this like, like, it makes it sound like very commercially and like unnatural. And like or they want like a specific background or like half the picture by the ocean. And you're like, Huh, do you know where I live? Can you work with me on this one. So sometimes, like the campaigns weren't really built with the practical influencer in mind, it's more like, this is this big brand. And across the board, they decided some creative team somewhere that everyone has to do, whatever. So those are definitely more difficult from my standpoint, in terms of executing it, because I'm only going to do kind of the bare minimum, because I'm too scared to go outside of that, because there's all of these rules, right? It does definitely make some restrictions. And it makes it I think, less successful, because it's just less lievable right? It doesn't fit in as well with my normal stuff. And it just sticks out more like an ad in terms of my content, like my audience isn't gonna believe it as being real because it looks like like produced.
Derek: Because you know, like the only you know influencer experience I ever received was when you invited me to the the home in a way secret media opening and that was awesome. But then we sat at this table with a bunch of food bloggers, and I didn't know what the heck was going on. We're just getting like random food to the table and then all of a sudden all their cameras come out. I didn't know what was going on.
Sarah: Oh, yeah. The lights the flashing. No one can eat. Oh, yeah. Don't touch it. Yeah, there's 10 minutes and pictures to take. That was hard for me. Yeah, no touching. But that was a little bit different, because that's a PR thing. That was that's almost like a third category of things that influencers do so those are not paid campaigns. They're gifted things. So basically, you either get an invite somewhere, or you might get like a product sent to your doorstep, and there's no direction, there's no it's not an exchange, and it's just there, we're throwing this at you, and we're gonna see what we get back from it. So they might get, you know, some stories about it, they might even get posted at something the influencer really liked influencer might, I don't know the shirt, they might wear it all the time or something. So the PR, whoever gave it to them doesn't know what they're getting out of it. But it's totally up to the influencer to do as much or as little as they want. So they could do nothing. Like you're under no obligation to do anything. Like we went to that Home and Away one that I could have not posted a single story, and no one would have known I was ever there. Right? That's really up to me. So I like those events for that reason because there's no obligation, but at the same time, I think they do kind of take advantage of people.
Derek: Can you explain the “Paid Sponsor” tag on Instagram?
Sarah: Yeah, so this is the nuance of Instagram so that paid whatever is almost completely meaningless because anyone can request that from anyone else. And it's like, no one is managing it. Like he could request it from each other. And people were like, oh, like, okay, like, this must be legit. So it's just if they choose to approve it or not, and I've sent paid for requests for things that I've actually been paid for, and it's never been approved. So I could never have that there because they have to prove it, or it can go up. So in those cases, what I'm supposed to do is write like, hashtag ad or whatever, somewhere in the post that people still know. So it's really inconsistent that way, and I wish Instagram with fix that like approval thing, so that you can either be like approved or denied or like, no, at least know where your request was in the thing, because I would love to put that on all my posts that are paid, but it's not like a simple, like, thing for you to do, like a practical standpoint
Derek: Back in the day influencers were mostly known as like celebrity spokespeople, right? So there's like Cindy Crawford, like, holding up the Maybelline and being like, this is the stuff we're talking about, like the 90s. So what if you’re paid to promote a product you don’t like?
Sarah: Like, in terms of being ethical?
Derek: Yeah! Are you going to accept something that you don't really like? Let's say you went to a restaurant, and, you know, it was a paid sponsorship, and they actually want you to post about being at the restaurant and you didn’t have a good experience. What happens then?
Sarah: So here's the answer. If it is something that's been gifted to me by, like, you're talking about, like PR companies or whatever, then I'm under no obligation to say anything, right? So if I don't like it, I don't have to post so that they don't get a post. In that case, I just don't say anything, right? If it's something that I have a contract for, then even if I don't like it, then like I kind of already sold out. So there is like, obviously a price where you'll say like I you know, this is an ad like you're paying for a positive testimonial at that point. So whether your audience believes you or not, or is comfortable with that, then I don't know. Right? So hopefully you do like the product and you don't like come up into that as a problem. But there have been times where I've definitely like pumped up things that I was like, I would not normally be recommending this. It clearly is an ad and my audience knows it's an ad. So whatever, they kind of know that it's an exchange. I feel like it's just like, imagine, you know, a celebrity in a commercial selling may believe did we think Cindy Crawford really used Maybelline in our everyday life or actually cared about like, probably not? So I think people know.
Derek: So believe it or not. but I have some listener questions. Can you believe that? No, I'm surprised. I know. Well, they work for the previous agency that I worked at.. Logan asks, What is your ideal partnership?
Sarah: It would obviously be that I get paid a lot of money for something that I think is awesome to sell. So that's kind of my ideal partnership. Like right now I got hired to do Flatliner cider and these tastes delicious. I am happy to sell them. So They're paying me. So I feel like this is a match made in heaven.
Derek: I'm going to tell you that this is probably the first sponsored piece in my podcast.
Sarah: You should try the pineapple. This is “The Crisp” and it’s good, but I think I like the pineapple one. It's a Pinot loca, that's their summer one. And then they also have a rosé one that I thought was excellent. Really, really good.
Derek: Do you want something that's long-term like you're an ambassador of the business? Or do you like those just like little one-off projects?
Sarah: Long term is obviously easier, because then you get to know the person better that you're working with on the other end. And you can go a little bit smoother that way, in terms of like convenience, but the best reason for long term partnerships is that's the closest path to or the fastest path, I should say to sales. Because you're if you just do like a one-off post like your audience's it's easier for them to kind of, maybe they notice it, maybe they don't probably they dismiss it. But if you do consistent posts about something that's your legitimately think is your favorite product, like they're going to pay attention to that. And eventually, they're going to think, you know, I saw that liquor store, like Sara talks about this all the time, like, I'm definitely gonna pick one up, do building up that like know, like trust with your audience and a certain product, then that's the long term partnership is the way to go?
Derek: For sure. What do you call those longer partnerships I used to when I was working at the agency, and I'd have to try to work with influencers, but I was just so terrible at it. And that's why I have you on the podcast. No, I just, it was for everything that you described. It's like, why are you picking me? Like, I was basically just like, wow, this person seems okay, they got a lot of followers, I'll see if they want to do this. I used to call them ambassadors because basically, they're the ambassador of the brand or whatever. And I really liked that type of influence, or somebody who's just like sticking to the brand, almost like, you know, rW and co that clothing company would have like hockey players be the ambassador of the brand. And. . .
Sarah: I feel like the term Ambassador has gotten murky, though. Because I don't know what that means. Like, if someone posts like hashtag ambassador, I'm like, I Are you getting paid? Are you just? Did you buy the brand yourself? And you just really like it? Or is this part of a PR thing? And you're using a couple different hashtags like, so I just don't know what? being an ambassador me?
Derek: Okay, that makes sense, for sure. Because transparency wise, I want the brands that I look at or work for or that I purchased from, I want them to be like, as authentic as possible. So I want to make sure that the person that's advocating for their product is actually invested in it, and they really enjoy the product. So yeah, that makes total sense, actually.
Sarah: I think that just means you have to be an ambassador mindset is all you're asking for, like, do you actually like the product? Are you gonna use it in your everyday life? Or is this just like, you don't actually drink? But you're gonna still try to sell drinks? Because I'm paying? Yeah, totally.
Derek: What do you get going on in the near future here? Well, I'm doing a lot of things.
Sarah: So like, because I pivoted from the kind of, don't do much event stuff. If events come back, like that'll be big for me in terms of switching back to announcing a lot of event things. That'll be exciting. And we'll probably get it actually to go to a bunch of events, which would be awesome. A little bit of restaurant stuff, but not very much like with it just being patios and takeout because then it's like, what kind of news or like exciting things can I do with that. So a lot of liquor stuff is what you could expect to see from the future. It's like a running theme. Interview here. Um, but I guess like, the two big things that I've been spending my time on is one is my podcast, YYC Sociables. And that's about like, everything I do with my brand that we've talked about so far, just me talking about it live. And I do it weekly, and try to pump up like what things people can do in the city that are fun. So the goal is to like, have something fun to look forward to every week, which is hard during a pandemic, but I tried to get creative with it, and I try to stay safe with it too.
Derek: By the way, I have to say your podcast is pretty impressive, because one you're speaking to yourself for the most part, right? Oh, yeah. And two, there's nothing going on right now. And you're still come out with really good content though.
Sarah: The other thing I've been working on that's going very slowly so I don't have any sort of like time estimate on it is I'm trying to make I don't want to call it merch because I feel like it is more Like, I don't want to call it a clothing line, but what it is, it's like, why do I see sociable stuff. So it would be like a shirt that you wear to a bar, but it would have, something funny on it or something local with like a fear picture or something that you'd want to wear with your friends. They'd be like, oh, cool t-shirts, but then maybe even have like a small YYC sociables logo, like on the sleeve or like at the lawn or something. So it's not really much it's more like a T-shirt that you'd like, but it's also made by YYC sociables? Oh, that's awesome. That's a great idea. Actually. I think it is too. And part of it is because I really like drinking craft beer and craft beer is so big in Calgary. And you'll notice that a lot of breweries have closed but they're more for like men like they're all like brown or Navy. And it's like, Okay, well, what can we get something which is fine. Like I like a lot of the styles, but like, Can we also have feminine styles as an option too, because there's a lot of women who love drinking craft beer. Something like this is a niche I can fill. There you go. Yeah. Good call. I think I'm excited about that. As I said, I don't have any sort of timeline so people can follow me. And maybe in months, they'll get their shirts.
Derek: Yeah. preorder the shirts. You may not have seen them yet, but give it a pre-order. So Sarah knows the demand. And you can supply as many shirts as needed. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Outro: A fantastic discussion with my friend Sarah Sociables. If you don't already follow her at Sarah socials on Instagram, or podcast YYC Sociables, wherever you listen to your podcast. A few takeaways:
So the first one being, you know, the best influencers you should use are the ones that align with your brand. Don't make the mistake I did, you know, looking at their follower count and think, Oh, yeah, put them on the list, it's more important that you really monitor their account to see if what they post is, is relevant to what you have to offer. Another takeaway is don't try to micromanage the influencers, creativity, their content creators too. And it's important that you let them do their thing, you know so that your campaign looks as authentic as possible. You want your audience to believe that they're actually interested in your product or service. And the last one, you know, know what you want before you engage with an influencer. If you don't have a goal in mind, it's going to be pretty hard to get what you need out of that investment that you've put into hiring an influencer to speak about your product or services.